Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry defended his opposition
to gay marriage and reaffirmed his support for basic civil rights, including all
the federal benefits of marriage via civil unions, in an interview with the gay
press. (File photo by AP)
MORE INFO About this interview Editors’ note: John Kerry’s
presidential campaign negotiated a 15-minute interview with the local gay press,
and a 15-minute interview with Advocate magazine, as his only formal interviews
with gay media outlets during his primary or general election campaign.
The timing of the interview was closely monitored by Stephanie
Cutter, Kerry’s communications director, who alerted the reporter when
there were 30 seconds remaining.
Lisa Keen, who conducted the interview, was the Washington
Blade’s top editor for 18 years, until 2001. She was not assigned the
story by the Blade, but obtained the interview as a freelance journalist. The
Kerry campaign has declined all requests by the Blade for interviews with the
candidate or with John Edwards, his running mate.
Keen has publicly disclosed that she made personal contributions
to two Democratic presidential candidates — Howard Dean and Carol Moseley
Braun — during the primary season. A resident of Massachusetts, Keen was
married earlier this year, and the legal status of her union and others conducted
since April in Kerry’s home state were a major focus of the interview.
She was assisted in obtaining the interview by some officials
with the National Gay Newspaper Guild, a business affiliate organization that
includes 12 of the country’s largest local gay publications. Some of those
Guild officials are themselves public supporters of the Kerry campaign and have
held fund-raisers on his behalf.
The Blade maintains strict restrictions on personal contributions
by journalists to election campaigns and on the involvement of non-journalists
in obtaining interviews. But because of Kerry’s limited accessibility,
this interview is being published with full disclosure of these potential conflicts
of interest.
DES MOINES, Iowa — In John Kerry’s first
published interview with the gay press since winning the Democratic presidential
nominee, the Massachusetts senator defended his support for state constitutional
amendments that ban gay marriage and said he wasn’t sure whether he would
have lived a double life as a politician if he had been gay.
The Sept. 9 interview, which was granted with significant restrictions (see
sidebar), also covered his long history of support for gay rights and his commitment
to push for workplace protection and hate crimes laws as the most achievable
gay rights issues should he be elected.
The Democratic nominee also intimated for the first time that he agreed with
the portion of the Defense of Marriage Act, passed by Congress in 1996 and signed
by President Clinton, that permits one state to refuse to recognize marriage
licenses issued to gay couples by another state. Kerry said in the interview
that he opposed DOMA as “gay bashing” because the Constitution already
permits states such authority, an interpretation of the “Full Faith &
Credit Clause” that is the subject of heated debate among scholars and
advocates.
Kerry also suggested in the interview that as much as 60 percent of gay voters
did not vote in the presidential election, an assertion that could not be confirmed
or traced. The Blade reported after the 2000 race that data from 118 precincts
in heavily gay neighborhoods around the country suggested that 68 percent of
registered voters in those heavily gay neighborhoods turned out to vote in 2000.
The interview took place at a campaign stop in Des Moines just after the senator
spoke to an audience about health care.
Washington Blade: The gay community knows your
record, generally, and the Human Rights Campaign has described it as “stellar.”
But I don’t think many of us know exactly what inspired you back in 1985,
in your first term, to author the gay civil rights bill. Can you recall who
or what —
John Kerry: I just think it’s an important
matter of fundamental fairness. I think, you know, all Americans ought to be
treated fairly. And the equal rights clause and the equal protection clause
mean something to me. And I think you have to take on some tough fights sometimes.
And as president, I hope to pass ENDA [the Employment Non-Discrimination Act],
I hope to pass hate crimes legislation. I hope to be able to advance the understanding
in America of the difficulties people face in some of the choices in life and
we have to be a country that’s open and embracing people, period. I mean
I just don’t know how we’re America if we don’t live up to
those ideals.
Blade: I thought maybe you had a gay friend
or gay family member that inspired you to take up that mantle.
Kerry: Well, I’ve had friends, obviously,
and I’ve had supporters in my races and people I’ve cared about.
But I just never spent a lot of time thinking about people as, you know, different.
I mean, each to their own.
People choose or don’t choose — they are who they are. You are
who you are. And that’s who we are in America — a country that’s
understanding and recognizes that.
We obviously have some distance to travel. We’re still fighting discrimination
over color and religion and a lot of hurdles to go.
Blade: — including DOMA and the Federal
Marriage Amendment. You voted against the Defense of Marriage Act, and you’ve
spoken out against the Federal Marriage Amendment. In both cases you described
it as “gay bashing for political gain.”
Many of us feel that the constitutional amendments to ban same-sex marriage
in Massachusetts and Missouri also constitute gay bashing for political gain.
I’m curious why you haven’t spoken out against those two?
Kerry: Well, I think there’s a distinction.
I don’t think that’s gay bashing. It’s obviously a position
that people in the GLBT community disagree with — I understand that. But
I think that, historically, the definition of marriage and the application of
marriage laws has always been state defined. It is up to the states, not the
federal government.
That’s why I viewed the federal efforts, as specifically targeted, as
gay bashing, because they were usurping into a territory that they didn’t
belong. There was no need to do that. Under the constitution, no state has to
recognize another state’s decision, and it’s up to the states.
So what they were doing was reaching, for political purposes, to drive a wedge.
But it is within the rights of a state to define marriage. That’s within
state’s rights. And, you know, the majority of people in most states have
a different view about what constitutes marriage.
So this is a debate that’s going on now. People have different views.
What I think is important is to fight for fundamental rights.
To me, the focus right now ought to be on the application of the equal protection
clause — ought to be gaining the foothold of employment non-discrimination,
gaining the foothold of hate crimes legislation, making sure that we’re
protecting people’s ability to share the same rights — partnership
rights, tax code treatment rights, ownership rights, Social Security —
those rights are what are important to me.
That’s what’s governed more by the state and it becomes less of
conflict between… religion and the state, if you will.
Blade: You have supported the idea of providing
federal benefits through civil unions.
Kerry: Yes.
Blade: How would you go about making that happen,
as president?
Kerry: You have to fight for it. You have to
introduce it.
Blade: You would introduce legislation to make
that happen?
Kerry: That’s equal protection under the
law.
Blade: I know you supported the Massachusetts
amendment and it does provide for an alternative of civil unions.
Kerry: Correct.
Blade: But the Missouri initiative which just
recently passed, and a number of those that are coming up this November —
like Michigan, Ohio and others — are written such that they would eliminate
even recognition or security through civil unions.
Kerry: Right.
Blade: I think in Missouri, you said after
that vote that —
Kerry: I did. And I was not aware. I was unbriefed,
and I thought it was the same amendment we had in Massachusetts. And that’s
very simple.
I just thought it was a simple prohibition and not one that excluded civil
unions. Obviously, it’d be inconsistent.
I am for civil unions and therefore I would not have voted for that had I been
there. … I just didn’t know it went as far as it did and, obviously,
I don’t support it.
[In fact, the Missouri initiative does not explicitly ban civil unions, as
do the ballot measures in Michigan and Ohio. The Missouri amendment, however,
is different from the Massachusetts amendment — which bans marriage but
expressly creates the right to civil unions. The Missouri amendment bans marriage
but takes no position on civil unions.
After the interview, the Kerry campaign released a statement in the candidate’s
name declining to say whether the actual effect of the Missouri ballot measure
would have changed his position.
“It is not up to me what the people of any state decide,” Kerry
is quoted as saying. “And I wouldn’t presume to tell them what to
do. What I will do, if asked, is tell people what my position is. I believe
that gay and lesbian couples and families should be treated equally and fairly
and I believe that that’s best accomplished through civil unions.”]
Blade: How often does [gay marriage] come up
on the campaign trail? Do people ask you about it?
Kerry: It’s not coming up very much right
now, no. It depends on where you are, but mostly people are talking about health
care, and the war in Iraq, education, and jobs.
Blade: The polls would seem to indicate that
it’s kind of on a lower tier, but it is on the radar screen.
Kerry:I think
it’s because the states are sort of dealing with it. And there’s
less sense of — I mean I know that within the community there’s
a sense of urgency and disappointment, and I understand that.
But I think that politically right now nationally, the vast majority of people
are focused on the outsourcing of jobs and their inability to pay their bills
and survival, in a sense.
Blade: If you noticed, the turnout in Missouri
was much larger last month than expected, and many of the additional voters
who showed up to vote seemed to show up specifically to vote for the marriage
amendment.
Kerry: Well, that’s the Bush strategy.
Sure. That’s their strategy — to try to exploit.
Blade: Can you beat that?
Kerry: Well, I’m going to have to. And
you know we can’t afford to have 60 percent of the community stay home
like they did last time.
People are going to have to realize that what’s at stake here is the
Supreme Court of the United States. What’s at stake is whether you’re
going to have a president who’s prepared to fight for ENDA and fight for
hate crimes [legislation], or one who’s going to just let them sit there.
So if people want to make progress in America, in terms of equal protection
under the law and living up to our constitutional rights, this election is the
most important election of our lifetime.
Blade: Speaking of constitutional rights, many
of us see this issue — and I hate to keep hammering on gay marriage, but
it is the one we feel most under siege about right now — the Constitution
guarantees equal protection, but we see poll after poll saying most Americans
— the latest said 60 percent — are opposed to letting gays have
any kind of legal security or responsibility or benefits through marriage.
As president, how would you reconcile those two different places?
Kerry: Well, the presidency is the power of
bully pulpit to some degree, and you have to talk reasonably to people. Look,
you have to begin at a beginning.
It took us a long time to pass the [1964] Civil Rights [Act]. There was a huge
filibuster against it. Nowadays, people couldn’t conceive of why did we
fight about that.
It took us a long time for women to get the right to vote in America. You have
to fight for things.
And you pick a starting point, and my starting point is to try to pass ENDA
and try to pass hate crimes [legislation]. And you begin to educate people,
and hopefully you change the climate and tone — it’s been very exploitive
in the last year or so. And you lead.
Blade: And would you do that for the gay community
— try to —
Kerry: I have. Why do you ask me if I’d
do it?
Blade: As president. Would you do it as president?
Kerry: Yes, and I told you what my priorities
are going to be. I’m trying to be very honest about it. You’ve got
to begin with ENDA and begin with hate crimes and proceed to grow people’s
understanding.
[Kerry campaign spokesperson] STEPHANIE CUTTER
(to reporter): You only have 30 seconds.
Blade: OK, last question. I’m curious:
If you had been born gay, how different do you think your life would be?
Kerry: I can’t tell you the answer to
that question because I don’t know what my — you know, I just can’t
tell you how I would have responded to it. Would I have been at the forefront
of the crusade in the 1960s or would I still be, as some people are, living
a double life or something, I don’t know.
Blade: Could you have been in the military?
Kerry: Uh, I can’t tell you the answer
to that. I can’t speculate at all. There’s no way for me to speculate
on a life I haven’t lived.
Blade: Well, gay people do it — speculate
that, if we were straight, maybe we could run for Senate or maybe we could —
Kerry: Gay people run for the Senate.
Blade: They do now, but back when you were
first starting out —
Kerry: Gay people run for members of Congress.
Gay people served beside me in Vietnam.
Blade: Is there anything else you –
Kerry: Gay people have served in the military
for years. For years, they’ve served in the military. I know this.
This is what’s important: I want an America in which people are loved
and respected and not an America which has outcasts and discrimination and different
layers of being an American or a human being. People are who they are, and America’s
greatness is that we honor that and can respect it.
I think, you know, and I’ve said this before, I think marriage raises
a different issue in the minds of a lot of people because of its deep religious
foundations and institutional structure as the oldest institution in the world.
It is the oldest institution in the world — older than country, older
than our form of government, older than most forms of government. And people
view it differently.
What’s important to me is not the terminology or the status; what’s
important to me are the rights. The rights. That you shouldn’t be discriminated
against in your right to visit a partner in the hospital. You shouldn’t
be discriminated against in your right to leave property to somebody, if that’s
what you want. You shouldn’t be discriminated against if you have a civil
union relationship that affords you the same rights.
Now I think that’s a huge step. There’s never been a candidate
for president who has stood up and said I think we should fight for those things.
And you’ve got to progress. Even that, I take huge hits for.
And you know, I stood up on the floor of the Senate and voted against DOMA
because I thought it was gay bashing on the floor of the United States Senate.
I was one of 14 votes. The only person running for reelection who did that.
So I’m not going to take a second seat to anybody in my willingness to
fight for what I think is right. But I do think you have to take things step
by step, in a reasonable way, so you can achieve some progress and not go backwards.
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